New Autofocus RF mount tilt-shift lenses expected after next round of camera announcements

[EricN]

this would imply a completely new Tilt design, as the current TS-E lenses tilt all elements altogether.

I hope we get a mix, like a 14, a 24 and a 90ish
I am more a tele guy than a wide guy, but TS makes sense to have both wide and long options.
But I am aware that we're talking niches of niches, so they will probably take a long time to appear.
In the meantime, the TS-E still work fine

Ultimate nitch: TS-R 35mm f/1.2 L 1:1 Autofocus MACRO

 

[SwissFrank]

I do not think tilt/shift would work for that unless the butterfly would stay perfectly still.
Try stopping down your aperture.

1) I've said I've done it. You're welcome not to believe me but why would someone lie about that?

2) If you don't know how something works, just ask. Someone will probably explain it and maybe even get an old slide scanned just for your edification.

3) You can't really shoot macro by just stopping down more. You're already at f/16 probably and that's nowhere near enough DOF but f/22 and f/32 get such bad diffraction the softness renders the shot useless.

4) Butterflies stay still enough, now and then, to shoot. Much of the time they don't and when they don't, no other macro lens is going to work either. That's true whether you have a dedicated macro or a 90TS with a 250D or 500D diopter on it or a 2xTC.

5) You may be thinking TS somehow "takes more time" than a normal macro, but it doesn't really. To shoot butterflies and moths in the field, I pre-focus a macro and move it back and forth until it looks in focus. So it might be 15cm away from the subject at the bottom of the photo, and the same distance away at the top of the photo, and it's in focus, right? Do that 100 times and you'll get a handful of shots that are in focus, without subject movement, and with a decent composition.

The same basically works for TS. Generally speaking, you'll tilt the lens a few degrees, which actually tilts the plane of focus near on the bottom, and farther on the top. Now, the focus distance is more like 12cm at the bottom and 16cm at the top. Again it's just a crap shoot, moving the camera back and forth until you get the thing in focus.

What you may not have noted is that since you're not refocusing or retilting the lens, that 12cm/16cm or whatever is constant. After a couple shots, and practicing on a leaf for 10 seconds, you learn where the plane of focus is. You've got it sized to properly frame a butterfly wing taking up about 60% of the vertical height of the image when it's 45 degrees from perpendicular to you. Butterflies don't change size by a large factor as you're shooting them! They're the same size! And if you lose one individual it's a practical certainty another will come by for the same food plants. So, the lens stays in the same place as long as you're shooting. And you learn muscle memory of how to reorient the camera if one part is in focus but another not: maybe you need to tilt your body more, maybe less, with respect to the beast. You may have some mental image of someone composing a shot, THEN trying to focus, THEN tilt, needing a refocus, then more tilt, or less tilt, which changes the composition, so recompose... You'd be right to suspect there's not time for that, just as you'd be wrong to assume that's how it has to be done.

TLDR: to shoot butterflies in a field pre-focus and pre-tilt. Practice on a leaf the size of a butterfly wing, and the 90TS won't be any harder than a dedicated macro.

 

[SwissFrank]

I own (stupidly) 5 very good Gitzo tripods (the real ones, French made

I still have my G1228 "Mountaineer" from like 2000? 1999? Their first carbon I think. It's in great shape still. I remember I did have to get something about it fixed (I think a replaceable part; I just needed the part), and their Swiss distributor was in French Switzerland, and she was the only person I ever dealt with in Switzerland in any professional capacity in six years who claimed not to speak English OR German. The call went like:

Bonjour, Gitzo!
Bonjour madame, parle vous Anglais?
Non, I'm sorrryyyyy!
Allemande? (German, I ask, in French?)
Italienische? (She suggests Italian, but suggests it in German)
Japonais? (why did I waste one second learning Japanese, it's the most useless language)
She then laughed and conducted the call in English. And since it's Switzerland, of course her English was absolutely perfect.

 

[SwissFrank]

Ultimate nitch: TS-R 35mm f/1.2 L 1:1 Autofocus MACRO

not that niche, any TS is a macro lens with a 250D or 500D, Canon's double-lens closeup lenses. They screw in like filters and your "infinity focus" is 25 or 50cm. And the autofocus is coming to. So your joke is just about the aperture basically!

 

[SwissFrank]

I bought the TS-E90mm for macro work, but it turned out that image quality took a nose dive when focused at MFD and further deteriorated when tilting. And for those distances, you need a lot more tilt that the lens can do.

Did you use TC or closeup lenses? I probably shot mine mostly with a 500D or 250D, probably focused kind of medium-close, but never at MFD since the closeup lens meant even infinity focus was only 50cm or 25cm. I think it got a little soft with the 250D AND the 2xTC though, can't remember. But you can DEFINITELY use the tilt for butterflies without it getting soft. I got dozens of slides I saved from that period (out of probably 1000 shot!).

 

[Del Paso]

You are exactly right. Using a tripod is making a deal with the devil. As I always say, everything has tradeoffs. I probably use my tripod once a week after some planning (i want to do a panorama, focus stacking or long exposure here, here, and here). I'm wasting time doing it and probably missing something great. Limiting my usage is the best compromise I have come up with.

I must add that, for a long time, Leica Ms were my main cameras. And a Leica M on a tripod kind of contradicts the M concept.
And my mostly used tele lens, after I got my first Leicaflex, was the fast-focusing 560mm Telyt with the 1,4X Apo extender, 800mm total focal length. It came with a shoulder grip. Thus it had to be handheld. That's how I entirely stopped using tripods.

 

[David - Sydney]

No, it is not - especially in high resolution images when the "trick" may be visible - the algorithm needs to interpolate. Shift had other uses also.

In terms of value for money/size/weight/already has AF etc, using the RF10-20/4 and then keystone correction with associated interpolation would be a quicker and cheaper option than a TS-E lens for wide angle IMO.
For the best quality image (and at substantial cost) using TS-E would be better of course.

 

[David - Sydney]

I hate the tripods, too. Unfortunately it's a nnecessityfor me sometimes and I find myself spending the extra time setting it up (while if I'm with someone, they watch with annoyance....).

The first question my wife asks when I am packing for travel is... "do you really need to take a tripod"? The answer is of course = Yes!

For me, being able to take a "different" shot than an iPhone is the justification for taking my gear. Long (very long) exposures of architecture with cloud movement or ability to blur out moving people and preferably during twilight to give an image that camera phones can't.

At other times, I am asked to take a portrait/family shot with my "big camera" and I say that the phone is the best for it.

 

[David - Sydney]

Japonais? (why did I waste one second learning Japanese, it's the most useless language)

It is useful when training in karate but not really conversational
It becomes the common language amongst all Japanese martial arts globally.

 

[David - Sydney]

These new auto focus RF TS lenses are all about being useful to video shooters.

I use my TS lenses for stills and video and would love to see a motorised shift that I could use rather than tilting or panning the tripod. It's so hard currently to do smoothly with the manual versions due to the centre detent.

I'm the opposite in that I often use a TS lens to reduce DOF rather than how everyone thinks to increase DOF. An autofocus and tilt mechanism that moves with my subject or when I move the camera would be a great feature.

If they have motorised tilt and shift, Autofocus when paired with the new RF cinema cameras sounds like a great tool.

New firmware would be needed I think for this. As someone already mentioned, perhaps a Z with external zoom with associated power although I am not sure how it would be rigged if there is a big shift/tilt involved.
Focus stacking eg with the R5 would be possible for macro but I imagine that video and landscape would need to program much bigger movements (focus/tilt/shift)

 

[DSB]

In terms of value for money/size/weight/already has AF etc, using the RF10-20/4 and then keystone correction with associated interpolation would be a quicker and cheaper option than a TS-E lens for wide angle IMO.
For the best quality image (and at substantial cost) using TS-E would be better of course.

There is no doubt it would be a quicker and cheaper option, but then again an even cheaper and even quicker option is to use a smartphone. So where does it end?

If we were happy with keystone correction and AI interpolation, then no one would be using TS lenses in the first place. Not to mention that by using keystone and cropping etc. you literally don't know how the final image will be framed. And even if YOU can do some general guesswork and assume how the final photo will look like, it's way too much to expect that a client supervising you while you work will be able to do the same.

"We'll fix it in post" is not always the best option, certainly not if you're working for demanding clients.

 

[roby17269]

Ultimate nitch: TS-R 35mm f/1.2 L 1:1 Autofocus MACRO

my preciouuusssssss

 

[David - Sydney]

There is no doubt it would be a quicker and cheaper option, but then again an even cheaper and even quicker option is to use a smartphone. So where does it end?

True but even a smartphone would need to stitch to be wide enough for the architecture shots we are talking about. It also doesn't have a lot of pixels to play with interpolation although if the end result is only for web then maybe it is okay.

If we were happy with keystone correction and AI interpolation, then no one would be using TS lenses in the first place. Not to mention that by using keystone and cropping etc. you literally don't know how the final image will be framed. And even if YOU can do some general guesswork and assume how the final photo will look like, it's way too much to expect that a client supervising you while you work will be able to do the same.

With a phone, you would be able to check the composition of the final image/keystone correction on site.... or at least approximately. Less so with a MILC/RF10-20.
Selling TS-E lenses would be a very interesting discussion within Canon marketing/engineering. Definitely meeting a niche but the sales volume/profit discussion would be fascinating.

"We'll fix it in post" is not always the best option, certainly not if you're working for demanding clients.

and that is very true that the person paying for something will determine what quality is acceptable but there is no doubt that more stuff in post (whether DLO, interpolation, upscaling, denoise or genAI etc) will keep coming.
Recently on the website, there was a discussion about whether to use a great composition but low res on a cover vs a not ideal shot in better resolution. I think that composition won.
I remember the audio quality wars from vinyl to CD and then CD to mp3 but at the end, the usability of portable but poorer quality files won except for a tiny niche of users

 

[becceric]

1) I've said I've done it. You're welcome not to believe me but why would someone lie about that?

2) If you don't know how something works, just ask. Someone will probably explain it and maybe even get an old slide scanned just for your edification.

3) You can't really shoot macro by just stopping down more. You're already at f/16 probably and that's nowhere near enough DOF but f/22 and f/32 get such bad diffraction the softness renders the shot useless.

4) Butterflies stay still enough, now and then, to shoot. Much of the time they don't and when they don't, no other macro lens is going to work either. That's true whether you have a dedicated macro or a 90TS with a 250D or 500D diopter on it or a 2xTC.

5) You may be thinking TS somehow "takes more time" than a normal macro, but it doesn't really. To shoot butterflies and moths in the field, I pre-focus a macro and move it back and forth until it looks in focus. So it might be 15cm away from the subject at the bottom of the photo, and the same distance away at the top of the photo, and it's in focus, right? Do that 100 times and you'll get a handful of shots that are in focus, without subject movement, and with a decent composition.

The same basically works for TS. Generally speaking, you'll tilt the lens a few degrees, which actually tilts the plane of focus near on the bottom, and farther on the top. Now, the focus distance is more like 12cm at the bottom and 16cm at the top. Again it's just a crap shoot, moving the camera back and forth until you get the thing in focus.

What you may not have noted is that since you're not refocusing or retilting the lens, that 12cm/16cm or whatever is constant. After a couple shots, and practicing on a leaf for 10 seconds, you learn where the plane of focus is. You've got it sized to properly frame a butterfly wing taking up about 60% of the vertical height of the image when it's 45 degrees from perpendicular to you. Butterflies don't change size by a large factor as you're shooting them! They're the same size! And if you lose one individual it's a practical certainty another will come by for the same food plants. So, the lens stays in the same place as long as you're shooting. And you learn muscle memory of how to reorient the camera if one part is in focus but another not: maybe you need to tilt your body more, maybe less, with respect to the beast. You may have some mental image of someone composing a shot, THEN trying to focus, THEN tilt, needing a refocus, then more tilt, or less tilt, which changes the composition, so recompose... You'd be right to suspect there's not time for that, just as you'd be wrong to assume that's how it has to be done.

TLDR: to shoot butterflies in a field pre-focus and pre-tilt. Practice on a leaf the size of a butterfly wing, and the 90TS won't be any harder than a dedicated macro.

That sounds good. Now you've got me liking the purchase of a 90 TS-E...

 

[koenkooi]

Any ideas on why they marketed the lense as macro when it's not that good so close?

I suspect an 18MP APS-C sensor was not how they tested it

 

[gerald.d]

I own all of the current Canon TS lenses, 17, 24, 50, 90 and 135 mm.

To be honest, the potential autofocus feature hardly excites me, as I use them on a tripod 99% of time.

For my use, autofocus won't do anything and I already know that I'd still use the lens in manual focusing mode all the time.

Interesting, but a bit of a non-sequitur there. Tripod usage has no impact on the potential value of automatically setting the focal plane. Talking of which...

I use 90 and 135 mostly for studio work, product shots and focus plane control.

How long does it take you to set the tilted focal plane manually when shooting at high magnification? Do you have experience of using extension tubes on the 90mm or 135mm to get magnification in the 1:1 ballpark, where the depth of field is going to be of the order of 1mm or less?

 

[koenkooi]

Did you use TC or closeup lenses? I probably shot mine mostly with a 500D or 250D, probably focused kind of medium-close, but never at MFD since the closeup lens meant even infinity focus was only 50cm or 25cm. I think it got a little soft with the 250D AND the 2xTC though, can't remember. But you can DEFINITELY use the tilt for butterflies without it getting soft. I got dozens of slides I saved from that period (out of probably 1000 shot!).

I used it on a 7D without close-up lenses.

My intended use was insects on flowers and spiders. The flower would be parallel to the ground, the camera at a low angle.
You can get those kind of shots with the TS, but not at the magnification I wanted.
For larger flowers and butterflies it likely would’ve been a lot better. But we only planted those 4 years after I sold the TS

 

[gerald.d]

There are some posts here about choosing 3 points to define the tilt plane. Imagine, if you will, going into live mode on a R5m2 with a new TS lens and starting a tilt mode shot. You go through using the touch screen to select 3 points on the back for the camera to autofocus on individually and it then works out the correct tilt and sets the lens for you when you push the shutter button.

Extend that to video, and now imagine that the camera's object tracking can track the objects defined by the points you chose (let's say for the sake of argument that they are human heads), and in real-time move the plane of focus so that (within optical and physical limits of course) those all remained in focus as they walked around the room.

Or alternatively (and this is a shot you will see a lot of if these lenses/cameras are capable of doing it), imagine setting the focal plane on two pairs of eyes and a third point in a scene. Then both they and the camera move around the scene, but the focal plane remains absolutely locked on the individuals' eyes and the third point...

 

[SwissFrank]

I must add that, for a long time, Leica Ms were my main cameras. And a Leica M on a tripod kind of contradicts the M concept.
And my mostly used tele lens, after I got my first Leicaflex, was the fast-focusing 560mm Telyt with the 1,4X Apo extender, 800mm total focal length. It came with a shoulder grip. Thus it had to be handheld. That's how I entirely stopped using tripods.

I had a couple M6TTL bodies (literally never put batteries in though), a .58 and a .85, and had 35/1.4 and 75/1.4. I really loved that outfit. Photogs love to say "it's not the camera, it's the lens" but in fact you could get such great people shots with an M6 because no-one takes it seriously due to silence and non-imposing nature. An M6 with a nice point/shoot lens would get great pictures I think. I shot 400 and developed in Emofin, then scanned the film or a friend would do a couple prints a month for me.

I never heard of anyone with the big Leica telephotos. I didn't even know they had shoulder grips. I'm in awe.

 

[SwissFrank]

That sounds good. Now you've got me liking the purchase of a 90 TS-E...

The RF lenses are so incredible I'd wait for the RF version, but of course if you buy cheap used and sell later, the actual cost of ownership can be like just the 10% eBay commission and you pay one of the shippings. Take your time to buy cheaper and sell a bit more expensive and it can be even cheaper than that.